Author Topic: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)  (Read 34769 times)

ploxburr

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2021, 03:02:37 PM »

Having had a look myself: you are probably mistaken.

Let's consider the spectral of TM 3104, track 16 ("Fanfare for a champion"). It shows noise above 20 kHz whose volume is below -100 dB. Also pay attention to the beginning and end of the track, where the music is softer and one can see the noisefloor already from 16 kHz upwards.

Convert the track to MP3 at 320 kbit/s, using the latest LAME encoder v3.100.

The resulting spectrum is noticeably different: the cut-off at 20 kHz is now hard, and the noisefloor has holes in it.

High-frequency noise is the most consistent give-away for MP3. That is because noise has the highest entropy of any sound, and thus it is going to be mangled first by any lossy encoder.

The conclusion is: this track likely never underwent MP3 compression. It is improbable therefore that any files that came from Tele Music should be lossy. Consider revising your judgement.

As an aside, I also converted the track to Ogg Vorbis at 500 kbit/s. I must say that I'm amazed by the apparent truthfulness of the compression. Of course it has to be better than MP3, particularly with the higher bandwidth, but I did not expect the spectrals to look this good even for the noise.

The AI Agrees with you.


Greta

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2021, 03:51:48 PM »
Hi ploxburr,
is that a 100% reliable software? I don't know much about it, as a GUI is not available for Mac.
It still seems strange to me how a real lossless file could have frequencies going up to 20.5 kHz only.
But, if technology proofs that Tele Music files are legit..well..it's a good news. Perfect!

I renew my thanks to you kebarvid for your job, confirming to come back to me if you need some more files to complete the missing ones.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 03:54:38 PM by Greta »
G.

Greta

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2021, 04:16:01 PM »
@ ploxburr

one more thing:
we had a member sharing his own rips in the past, his nick was Popolvuh.
With some techy members here, we understood he was having some problems in the hardware ripping chain and we were about to help him, but he suddenly left the board.

Here is one of his shares, would you mind to check the tracks with "Lossless Audio Checker" and report here the results? Cheers!

[Selected Sound] - ST 178 - Ingo Hauss - Atlanticscope (1986)
racaty.net/jsve7yt74etz



G.

likedeeler

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2021, 07:12:18 PM »
Taking up this challenge which Greta never posed. Man against machine, hah.

The item considered is ST 178, track 10 ("The new world").

The AI can say what it wants, this Atlanticscope digitisation is legit. MP3 can never have been involved.

These files are in fact so good that they show the limits of Ogg Vorbis@500 quite clearly. Below about 19 kHz, the OV spectral -- contrary to that of the MP3@320 conversion -- is virtually identical to that of the FLAC file. I cannot even detect any difference when I maximise both spectrum windows and alternately bring one or the other to the fore. But from 19 kHz on upwards, the differences in noise rendering are very obvious.

Thank you for Atlanticscope, which I've never heard or heard about before!

By the way:

It still seems strange to me how a real lossless file could have frequencies going up to 20.5 kHz only.

Keep in mind that we are used to seeing amateur rips from analogue records. Of course these rips are going to exhaust the frequency range, at least in their raw state.

But Tele Music aren't amateurs. Either they will have faded out the frequencies at 20 kHz in post-production many years ago already, and what we now see is a rip from master tape. Or, if the masters were deleted, they have digitised a pristine exemplar of the record from their archives and applied the 20 kHz fade-out (which I should better call "the application of a low-pass filter") again afterwards. This does no harm to the music and is completely in order. It used to be standard in analogue times to fade out at 20 kHz. That is actually the reason for the CD format pitching the sampling frequency at 44.1 kHz, because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 11:23:36 PM by likedeeler »

Greta

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2021, 11:46:46 PM »
Dear likedeeler,
I thought you already understood, but apparently not (as many other things...)
From the moment you have shown that you do not know good manners, from that exact moment, I do not care about your unrequested blathering.
I was communicating with kebarvid and ploxburr, actually, and your boorish lesson was nothing but useless to me. So, please, do not worry about answering again to my posts.

Now, back to ploxburr, or any other kind and expert soul out there...

I was interested in the reliability of that software.
I've read that AES-E Library article about it in the meantime (linked in their website), and all seems to be quite professionally developed.
What can you tell about it?
Nobody thought that Popolvuh was not sharing his own rips in lossless, at the time, I think. At least, not me.
What I am curious about is: could any problem in the hardware ripping chain (cables, connectors or whatever) cause the final rip to be someway faulty, even if legit?
And another question I've always been curious about: could any kind of post-applied digital filter cause the same thing?

Cheers.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 11:48:43 PM by Greta »
G.

ploxburr

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2021, 02:54:08 AM »
@ ploxburr

one more thing:
we had a member sharing his own rips in the past, his nick was Popolvuh.
With some techy members here, we understood he was having some problems in the hardware ripping chain and we were about to help him, but he suddenly left the board.

Here is one of his shares, would you mind to check the tracks with "Lossless Audio Checker" and report here the results? Cheers!

[Selected Sound] - ST 178 - Ingo Hauss - Atlanticscope (1986)
racaty.net/jsve7yt74etz

I really like the software, I was checking it against the spec for a while after I first got it and didn't get any false readings as far as I could tell, Now I just trust it. Here's its opinion of ST 178

Didn't bother letting it finish, I'm sure you can guess the answer for the last few tracks  :P

(Side note, Apparently MacOS Has VirtualBox and VMWare support? These would allow you to install windows 7 Within MacOS to run windows software. I don't own any macs but it works well on Linux.)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 02:59:45 AM by ploxburr »

Greta

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2021, 09:10:25 AM »
Thank you ploxburr.
I will have to study what upsampled or upscaled mean, and if it's as bad as transcoding.

Yes, I know about Virtual Box or VMWare to install and run Win software, but I never felt like to install those programs before, sensing them like "out of Mac users philosophy".
I'll se what to do. Actually, there's a "power users" version of Lossless Audio Checker, the one with no graphic interface, for Mac. But probably too complicated for me.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 09:13:53 AM by Greta »
G.

likedeeler

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Re: Tele Music (Lossless)(Complete)
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2021, 11:49:17 AM »
To whom it may concern:

The AI Agrees with you.


I've run a quick experiment on Lossless Audio Checker, and the results are unconvincing.

To not make Greta's day any worse here, there is now a separate topic on this issue >> https://librarymusicthemes.net/index.php?topic=7872.msg55670
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 11:59:08 AM by likedeeler »